I don't think you can call weight watchers a "fad" if it's been around for 40 years, although I can see how labelling it as such helps make your point, and makes you feel better about rejecting it out of hand.

Great, good for you, you exercise a ton and you don't lose weight. There are two factors to weight - exercise and diet. (And by diet, I mean what you eat.) If you think it's unhealthy to slightly reduce the amount of calories you have every day, then you obviously will stay fat and feel that there's no way to change. Congratulations.

Everything is black and white to you, isn't it? Eat whatever you want whenever you want, or go on an unhealthy crash diet that will screw you up. Yep, there's certainly nothing to be said for moderation. All or nothing.

And I notice you quote big fat lies freely, but still won't deal with the fact that he recommends dieting and losing weight. Those blinders are working pretty well, aren't they?

I'll never change your mind, which is probably good. I wouldn't want you to lose weight slowly and safely and be UNHEALTHY because of it.

Shout away to prove your point.

Do you even know what she eats? Do you assume she eats junk food because she exercises and still isn't losing weight? I'm vegan and haven't lost an ounce. Why is it so hard to fathom that people can 'do all the right things' and continue to be fat?

The only one with blinders on is you, sweetheart.

Thanks for this post Dru. I was thinking about that whole "sloppy body- sloppy thinking" crap and fat =lazy and I was thinking the exact same thing. Is it okay for me to call people who don't live like me "lazy"? Next time someone tells me "Oh, I could never homeschool! But I admire those of you who do" I'll just point out to them that of course they could homeschool. I do and so could they if they weren't so fucking lazy!! Because everyone really should think like me and live like me too!

Why do thin people need to even debate this issue? I've yet to meet a single fat person who says- "I really hope that thin people will approve of my lifestyle. I hope they're discussing it on the internet right now and I really hope they like me". Why don't they mind they're own fucking business?

Charlotte, I'm looking at my copy of Big Fat Lies and I don't see Gaesser recommending dieting to lose weight. He talks about something called metabolic fitness and says over and over again that it is possible to be fat and metabolically fit.

It's difficult for me to imagine that you read Dru very often. If you did you would see that she has a healthy approach to food and, frankly, no one with two boys isn't getting exercise. I think before you accuse people of black and white thinking you might want to check yourself.

All fatness begins with genes. There are people who eat more than I ever will and move less than I ever do and they aren't fat. They don't have the genes. But there isn't one fat gene and one fat body. Every fat person you see has a different story. Eating and exercise are only part of the picture.

Weight Watchers has been around for awhile, hasn't it? And there are still fat people. I don't think it's a fad. I think it's snake oil. One thing that Gaesser makes very clear is that dieting is part of why people are fat. Oh. But that's right. You're only interested in the last half of the book. The part where you feel vindicated in making the choices you make for your body. Choices that Dru isn't criticizing. I wonder why you feel the need to criticize hers. Are you feeling a little resentment about how hard you work to keep your body acceptable?

I'm not an apologist for my fat body. I don't blame my genes any more than I blame my genes for my brown eyes. I'm proud of my fat grandmother, mother and my own fat body. Neither of them had what you call weight related illness. Diversity is an amazing thing.

Sorry to go off in your comments, Dru.

There are plenty of fattening foods that are vegan. Oils, for one. Nuts. All fine in moderation, but it's very easy to stay fat without eating meat.

Tish, it's not just the second half of big fat lies, it's an entire diet book.

Dru, I'm sure I couldn't get through your day without being totally exhausted (your word). And I have no idea how much you weigh. But you proudly claim to be fat, so I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say at least 50 pounds. So you're right - if I had to do everything you did in a day holding a bag of concrete, I'd be pretty damn tired.

It's physics, friends. Conservation of energy. Calories are fuel, activity burns them. The same principles that work pretty damned well making cars go, planes fly, computers turn on. But somehow, when it comes to humans, physics break down and food and energy aren't related. I don't buy it.

I don't care who's fat, I don't judge people who are fat. It's a choice. (More like twenty choices a day.) But I do judge people who say it's not a choice - it's dishonest. Make your choices, live with them, be proud. Don't attack people who dare to actually suggest there's an element of personal responsibility in weight.

OK Charlotte. It's a choice. I choose to be fat. I chose not to obsess about food. I choose to move for the love of movement and not the fear of a dress size.

You don't judge fat people? That's among the most intellectually dishonest things I've ever read.

A diet book? Amazing.

Hey, Dru, this is a woman who cannot hear anything but the sound of her own voice. I'm hoping you're feeling the compassion I feel for her right now. It must be hard to be that mean spirited.

I'm wondering why you are so concerned about whether fat people are 'making excuses' or not. It doesn't affect you, so why don't you bugger off and find a new hobby? Trolling is so last year.

Tish:

The Spark : The Revolutionary New Plan to Get Fit and Lose Weight-10 Minutes at a Time

by Glenn A. Gaesser (Author), Karla Dougherty (Author)

If you'd like the Amazon link, I can provide it.

I've read The Spark. It's an interesting book. Glenn still talks about metabolic fitness rather than weight loss. He notes that people did lose some weight with the spark format but he isn't framing the book as a weight loss book.

And we were talking about Big Fat Lies. And Big Fat Lies is not a diet book. More specifically it talks about diets (including Weight Watchers) as part of the reason why people, in general terms, are fat. Glenn Gaesser is one of the leading proponents of the health at any size paradigm. His focus is metabolic fitness AT ANY SIZE.

I can't speak for Dru but I can say that I've never heard her say people shouldn't exercise.

Charlotte, why do you give a fuck about how honest your neighbor is being about their food choices? How are you being harmed, pray tell? Does it weaken your efforts to be obedient to the oppression? Does it threaten your fidelity to the "master's" policy about weight and eating and make it harder for you to keep your own body and desires in restraints? I don't know why it would bother you so much. Check it out Char. Your verbal and social battery are really over the top and very telling.

Charlotte:

I's 5'5" and about 125 lbs. I can eat whatever I want and stay thin. In fact, by a strange twist of fate, I have nice big boobs, a smallish waist, and a fashionable ass that fits most size-6 jeans. I walk lots because I like to, I eat what I want to even if it's unhealthy, and I look this way. Oh, and at the end of the day, I'm tired two - from chasing a kid, form working, from keeping a marriage stroing, adn from dealing with the bullshit this culture spews at me.

Tell me, does your little paradigm have room for me? Aren't I lazy? Shoudn't I be punished for my inattention to calories and heartrates? Or do I just get your approval as a cosmic freebie, and is it okay for me to be tired?

I'll answer for you: your approval of my ass is kind of arbitrary privelege, like the kind I get for having (genetically) pale skin, and parents affluent enough to send me to college. And you, and doctors, and the rest of the unverse are not going to chase me down the street telling me how awful I am for those Little Debby Nutty Bars, even though I do eat them on occasion, because I fit your mold by sheer chance.

Your double standard sucks. You make judgements you can't possibly make intelligently. The only person you have righs to make judgements about is yourself.

Also: yeah, Weight Watchers has been around. For a long time. So? Walk into any one of them and ask what the two or five year success rates are for their program. They are required by law to share that information, but they don't love doing so. I'm pleased for you that you'r happy with your body -- just as I'm pleased for Erik that he likes his. But isn't that enough for you? Or do you still hate the memory of your previous self so much that you need to shout at the shadow of it in other people who have nothing to do with you?

That's really pathetic.

Dru, I thought you'd fixed the fence, so how'd this troll get in?

Charlotte, you can say it's a choice all you want, but I can point you to more than one person who was literally starving/exercising themselves to death while weighing more than the culture considers "appropriate" for their heights. Some. people. are. just. fat. And it shouldn't be a problem for anyone if they are. Just like it's not a problem for anyone when folks are skinny.

great post dru!

Troll. Ah, right, someone who doesn't agree with you and visits your blog. Remind me again how this started? It couldn't have been Dru visiting someone else's blog and slamming them, could it have been? That doesn't make her - gasp - a troll, does it?

OK, enough time spent talking to those who won't listen. Good lives, all.

Hi Charlotte,

I'm not sure if I agree with the assessment that you are a troll, however I have to quote the site that I originally linked to on this topic:

You are encouraged to answer the Question of the Day for yourself in the comments or on your blog.

Um, ok. You will note that my first 3 or 4 posts in that forum slammed no one, but...yeah...after whatshisname CHANGED his height and weight on his profile, I do admit that I DID call him an idiot. Shrug. I call 'em like I see him, and I figure he said I had a "lazy mind" first, so we're even.

I need to ask you what you were hoping to gain by talking to us in the first place? Did you feel like your words here would positively impact our lives, or were they merely justification for your own choices? Because I'm not seeing where you were attempting to communicate anything that might be helpful to anyone but yourself. Several people have asked you about your motivations for posting here, and you have not answered, and I assume this is why many assume you are a troll.

Fair enough. thank you for such a measured, reasonable response.

I'd say people haven't asked me my motives, they've told me my motives. Clearly I'm obsessed with X, compensating for Y, jealous of Z. My motives were simple: you said that the original poster who started all of this couldn't understand, being a thin male without children. Our histories aren't unalike, and I thought I'd share the experience of someone who could understand you.

And, and I admit this is childish, there's something that gets my hackles up when I hear that being fat is just the way a body is, and that trying to change it is unhealthy, or that skinny people are just lucky. I was fat, I worked hard to get skinny, I'm healthier than I ever was, and I'm proud. And, I admit there's something in me that would like to get that message to people - it is possible to be thin and healthy, if that's a goal. I understand it isn't everyone's goal. And if it's not, that's great.

I'm just glad I didn't listen to defeatist talk before I changed my life. Not to plug weight watchers, but one of the things they stress is that it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change. I don't think diets are sustainable. But I think there are things people can do to look at the way they live, change the way they live, and feel better about themselves.

Thank you for asking.

Charlotte, I can see why you'd object to some of the assumptions that have been made about you here. Some of them are evidently false, and others are unfair and possibly hurtful. But you've made a lot of unfair assumptions yourself, I think.

Whatsisname (Eric something?) made some really stupid assumptions about dru, partly because he's never been fat, or a woman, or a mom. That fact that you are a woman and mom and used to be fat would seem to give you more insight--but it also means that you have a whole set of perceptions about your own situation that you might (maybe without even realizing it) foist onto dru and other women who are fat and healthy and OK with that.

For example, you mentioned bad food habits you were raised with and never really questioned. I know you didn't say this explicitly, but it sounds like you think dru and others who have written probably have such habits. But I can tell you from personal experience with dru that isn't the case with her. I've eaten at her house and seen the inside of her refridgerator and with the exception of a special-occasion dish or two, I've only seen her eat (and serve her kids) healthy, vegetarian, mostly whole foods meals. And if you think about it, I'm sure you'll acknowledge that you don't really know enough to presume about anyone's eating habits.

I don't think that if you approached this discussion in a less confrontational fashion (and with a little more open-mindedness) that anyone would judge you for having decided to make a big effort to lose weight. A lot of people have reacted to the fact that you seemed to be judging them. Maybe not always in the most mature and constructive manner, but hey, I think that's understandable.

I can also understand why you might have a really visceral reaction to people like dru taking issue with assumptions about fat and health. After all, you've obviously invested a lot of time and energy and psychic capital in achieving and maintaining your weight loss. (I should know, my mom is on Weight Watchers right now and it's a huge undertaking.) It's understandable that you'd want that effort to be acknowledged and valued. And I think it should be, at least insofar as it was a healthy change that you feel good about making and that makes your life better (maybe that's entirely true, maybe not, but to the extent that it is, I say good for you). But I can't help thinking--and maybe this is my own set of unproven assumptions--that living in a society where standards of weight are unfair and repressive, especially for women, was probably an added incentive for you to lose weight, and not always with the sole motivation of being healthy. Even if that's not the case, having lost weight could put you in a weird situation, because even if you don't want people who judged you unfairly when you were fat to see you in a better light now, they do, and you can't help that, even if all you wanted was to be healthier. But I don't know, maybe you did want the approval of people who unfairly judge others who are fat--that would certainly be understandable.

But it puts you in this position of having a stake in those unfair assumptions people have about being fat--in other words, fatphobia. But you could also choose to continue living the lifestyle (diet-wise, exercise-wise, or whatever-wise) that you have found works for you and helps you feel healthy, without buying into the idea that being fat made you a weak person or that fat people are lazy, or eat badly, or have bad food habits, or can't be beautiful, or whatever. Unlike that guy whatsisname, dru and the people who read her blog regularly won't judge you based on your weight or your lifestyle decisions. (If you're judging them, though, I don't think you can object to be judged back on that score.)

By the way, in case anyone is wondering, I just want to say for the record that dru is a total dynamo who really doesn't get enough rest or time off her feet, a great cook who feeds herself and her kids really healthy food, and though this doesn't affect her rightness or wrongness here in any way, she is a super cutie, not just in that well-isn't-everyone-beautiful-when-you-really-think-about-it way but in a hey-did-you-see-that-hot-girl way. Well, I think so, anyway.

Funny, the "message" thing. I usually hate the kind of analogy I'm about to make, but in this case I think it's appropriate.

As a lesbian, I've had people tell me and other lesbians that we, too, can change our sexual orientation and lifestyle.People do it all the time and feel much better aobut themselves as a result.

I'm sure some people do, but I've never had the desire to change this about myself.When I want to change something I look for ways to do it and people who have done it.I'm very happy being an out lesbian and beleive that people who try to convince me there's something wrong with it are the ones with the problem.

So, Charlotte, who's asking you for help to change here? Where on this blog did you read anybody complain about their fat? All I've read is people celebrating their bodies and lives.

AND I would imagine that if anyone wanted to lose weight they already know where to go. No shortage of education there.

And the ugliness of some of your comments like the "50 lb bag of cement" just cannot go un challenged. Ugly. Mean. Deserving of rebuff. In need of follow-up apology.

I apologize for calling you a troll.

"But I think there are things people can do to look at the way they live, change the way they live, and feel better about themselves."

You know what the number one thing that I changed about how I lived that helped me feel better about myself? I stopped assuming straight off that it was wrong, bad, unattractive or unhealthy for a body to be fat. Can it be a sign of a problem? Yes, but so can skinniness. You worked hard to become skinny and it's been beneficial to you. Great! Me? I'm going to hold on to my 50 lb bag of cement, thanks anyway.

lol - I apologize for "cement" coming across as mean. I really was searching for something that was 50 pounds, and couldn't think of anything. I almost put "cat food," but I don't suppose that would have been right, either. Worse, probably.

All I know is that when I pick up something that's even half the weight I lost, I'm amazed at the thought that I could carry that much around with me, everywhere. It was coming off of Dru's talk about being exhausted. On one hand, when someone tells me how exhausted they are, I feel like saying (and I did) "I used to be so exhausted too! Can't you see it's because of the extra work you're doing? Anyone would be exhausted!"

But, on the other hand, it's none of my business. It's not my problem to solve. Someone's fat and happy, more power to them, and if they can cope with the exhaustion, more power to them again. Seriously. I believe that.

I think that where I'm differening from everyone is that I don't feel that exhaustion (and all the other baggage that comes from being fat) is necessary. (And please, don't anyone tell me there's nothing negative about being fat! Discrimination, taunting, bad medical care, etc, etc, etc...) But, clearly, the rest of you feel that fat isn't a condition that can be changed, or at least, that it can't be changed at a cost you think is reasonable.

I apologize for the tone of my earlier posts. I was too heated about the whole issue. Take care of yourself, everyone.

Charlotte : "And please, don't anyone tell me there's nothing negative about being fat! Discrimination, taunting, bad medical care, etc, etc, etc.."

None of those are caused by being fat. Not one. They're caused by people being assholes. Do you see that? Do you see that you are being a part of that? All Dru was saying was this: "don't make assumptions about people based on the size of their bodies. And don't expect everybody else to live by your values".

I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

When you jump in and make remarks about how you were fat, but now you're thin and healthy- you're implying that fat people are unhealthy and if they would get thin, they'd be healthy. That's not so. It shouldn't even be hard for you to see. I know thin people who never exercise and smoke and eat junk. I know fat people who are just the opposite. I even managed to get thin once myself. It didn't make me feel more energetic- just more accepted. And the ciggs I smoked back then helped a lot with the weight loss. But nobody said, "Hey! Better fat and healthy than and smokeing those cancer sticks!" No. It was all about how great it was that I'd lost weight- no matter the method.

It's not that we think it's a condition that can't be changed, we think it isn't a condition that's everybody else's damn business to worry about.

As far as Weight Watchers, I started going when I was twelve. My mom and I have both gone, from back when they were fried hamburger patties and cottage cheese to high carb to fat and fiber to points- we did it all. We lost weight, but in the end, every single time, ended-up fatter. My grandmother, and great grandmother were fat too, but not as fat as mom and me, because they were lucky enough not to worry about their body size and never stupid enough to go on diets. In all the years that my mom and my friends and myself went to WW, not one of us kept the weight off. In fact, in the 28 years since I first went to WW, you are the first person I've ever met (who was not an employee of WW) claim that it worked for her. So -you know- good for you. But I'm over WW. I no longer wish to spend my life obsessing about food.

Charlotte, I don't think you can say that being fat is the same thing as carrying around a 50 or 100 pound bag of ANYTHING. It's simply not the same thing. I have no problem hefting my body around, and the only reason I'm exhausted at the end of the day is because I get approximately 6 hours of sleep a night, and I pretty much run around all day taking care of everyone's needs. I think you'd be exhausted at the end of my day, too...if you were me...regardless of how much or how little you way.

The ironic thing is that, physiologically, my body is probably more efficient than yours. My body probably burns fewer calories doing the same tasks that your body does. A lot of times, fat people can work just as hard as thin people, and eat the same foods, but gain weight or stay the same where a thin person would lose weight.

NO ONE really fully knows how the body processes foods. And therefore assumptions can't be made about it. For all we know, fat is the next evolutionary leap. We just DON'T KNOW.

Your latest response is still so very rude. I know you are at least attempting to apologize, but you're still coming across as sanctimonious, and I wish you'd think about what Ivy and some others have said before you attempt to come back and "apologize" again.

The idea that having a certain amount of "excess" weight is like carrying around the same amount of something is such a pile of crap. When I worked at a bakery years ago I used to have to haul around these huge bags of sugar, which was really difficult for me. I'm sure the amount of weight I've gained in the intervening years (20 pounds or so) is more than what those sugar bags weighed. But if I felt like I was carrying one of those things around every day, I'd be a tired, achy, sweaty wreck all the time (which I'm not!).

When I go to the gym I sometimes do exercises with 5 and 10 pound hand weights. They're pretty easy for me to work with in that context, but I would have a really hard time carrying even one five-pound weight all day. I don't think that would be the same thing as if I gained five pounds...it just doesn't make sense.

Here's what I don't get. If it's so much work hauling around one's "extra" weight (in other words, the quanitifiable amount by which you differ from an arbitrary ideal), why don't fat people get thin just from walking around? (This is, of course, if you also accept the spurious assumption that you can't get serious exercise without losing weight, a corollary of which is that if you're fat you must not be getting good exercise.) It just defies logic.

I keep thinking about the "bag of cement/cat food/etc." argument, and I have a question. If I weigh about 140 and Monk weighs, well, I don't know how much kids weigh but let's say for the sake of discussion 50 pounds, does that mean that I get as tired hauling my butt around as Monk would if he had to carry a 90 pound bag of jellybeans?

Obviously the argument is supposed to apply only to "excess" weight that is the result of fat and not muscle mass or all the other things like bones and blood and organs that make up a human being. Hence the ridiculousness of my me vs. Monk comparison. But is it really reasonable to say that you can just look at someone, or hear their most basic vital statistics like weight and height, and really know how much of their weight is fat and how much is muscle? No, but even more unreasonable is assuming that because someone says that they accept themselves as fat, you can estimate how much of their weight is excessive and then go on to make claims about why they may or may not be exhausted after chasing around a couple of squirmy snot-fountains all day with no sleep.

My attempts at apologies sucked. I apologize. I'm sorry that my experiences are so different from everyone else. I don't know why my body responds the way my body responds. I had previously thought that it was because of the work I put in, but I now see that all of you could put in the same work and not have the same results. I'm just different.

My health, personally, got better. Better blood pressure adn cholesterol, leg pains and back pain disappeared. But again, that's just my body and I get it. Everyone's body is different.

I do understand that my experience is just a case of one and not proof. People have brought up smoking - some people can never smoke and drop dead of cancer. My having better health numbers than I used to doesn't insure a long life. I get it.

And I understand that most of the negatives of being fat are what other people pile on fat people. (I say most, because at least FOR ME there were some measurable health differences, and energy differences.)

I posted to talk about MY experience, and I will be more careful that when I talk about MY expeience in the future, I make it very clear that I'm not trying to extrapolate it into saying that everyone else can have a simliar experience.

Chance of the draw. I get it.

This is the best apology I can craft. If it still falls short, then I'm a very bad writer. You obviously all very passionately believe in this, and that's impressive.

My attempts at apologies sucked. I apologize. I'm sorry that my experiences are so different from everyone else. I don't know why my body responds the way my body responds. I had previously thought that it was because of the work I put in, but I now see that all of you could put in the same work and not have the same results. I'm just different.

My health, personally, got better. Better blood pressure adn cholesterol, leg pains and back pain disappeared. But again, that's just my body and I get it. Everyone's body is different.

I do understand that my experience is just a case of one and not proof. People have brought up smoking - some people can never smoke and drop dead of cancer. My having better health numbers than I used to doesn't insure a long life. I get it.

And I understand that most of the negatives of being fat are what other people pile on fat people. (I say most, because at least FOR ME there were some measurable health differences, and energy differences.)

I posted to talk about MY experience, and I will be more careful that when I talk about MY expeience in the future, I make it very clear that I'm not trying to extrapolate it into saying that everyone else can have a simliar experience.

Chance of the draw. I get it.

This is the best apology I can craft. If it still falls short, then I'm a very bad writer. You obviously all very passionately believe in this, and that's impressive.

Hey, people, check out this link I got through Negrophile. It's about a study done on the average sizes and shapes of people in America--obviously fairly pertinent to a discussion of fatphobia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/national/01SIZE.html?ei=5007&en=33176ce880657d2b&ex=1393477200&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all&position=

The factoid that most caught my attention: Whereas the clothing industry assumes an "average" woman wears a size 8, a true "average" would wear a 14.

Obviously, just because something is "average" or common doesn't mean that it is good or healthy, necessarily. But so often prejudice against fatness is couched in terms of "normalcy," and that's something you could challenge with information like this.

Whoah..

My attempts at apologies sucked. I apologize. I'm sorry that my experiences are so different from everyone else. I don't know why my body responds the way my body responds. I had previously thought that it was because of the work I put in, but I now see that all of you could put in the same work and not have the same results. I'm just different.

My health, personally, got better. Better blood pressure adn cholesterol, leg pains and back pain disappeared. But again, that's just my body and I get it. Everyone's body is different.

I do understand that my experience is just a case of one and not proof. People have brought up smoking - some people can never smoke and drop dead of cancer. My having better health numbers than I used to doesn't insure a long life. I get it.

And I understand that most of the negatives of being fat are what other people pile on fat people. (I say most, because at least FOR ME there were some measurable health differences, and energy differences.)

I posted to talk about MY experience, and I will be more careful that when I talk about MY expeience in the future, I make it very clear that I'm not trying to extrapolate it into saying that everyone else can have a simliar experience.

Chance of the draw. I get it.

This is the best apology I can craft. If it still falls short, then I'm a very bad writer. You obviously all very passionately believe in this, and that's impressive.

Ack! Obvsious browser error. Sorry.