yes yes yes! it really peeves me no end how defensive so many men are about admitting or acknowledging this, which if you think about it is just common sense. more of that privilege thing.

just like it peeves me when my fellow pale-faced Euro-Americans get all uppity when Black people aren't instantly friendly and bubbly and offering them hugs and saying "How wonderful to meet a liberal and non-racist Euro-American! Let's be friends!" Really, is it any wonder someone might have difficulty trusting someone who looks like you, if every single day of their life people who look like you have been treating them as The Other?

I think one of the most important features of self-reflection is the ability to stare unblinking into the mirror and to do two things in quick succession:

1. feel a profound sense of humility
2. laugh really loud and hard until tears come to your eyes

Gender roles enslave us all.

Gender guilt is unlikely to be effective to begin to recognize each other as persons worthy of equal respect.. rather than some representative to a gender.

I think there's a fine line between "guilt" and "acknowledgement." Admittedly it often gets blurred, with humans. Agree that simply feeling bad (and/or attempting to dump one's bad feelings on someone else) (not that that's what RJ or anyone else here is doing, just to clarify) isn't terribly useful, politically speaking. It serves a purpose, though, and admittedly I do it myself, from both ends. ...But I'm not ashamed of it, dammit.

A person, when you start living in reality, I will have a discussion with you. Unfortunately, it is a reality that these gender inequities exist.

It's totally a given that the patriarchy hurts men too. It's not FAIR to men that they have to be viewed as potential rapists in any given situation, any more than it's fair for women to have to measure her safety against fully experiencing life. But both are realities we are challenged with.

Acknowledging those realities is not engaging in gender guilt. Ignoring those realities is an act of extreme denial.

"He might be a man, but at least he gets it"

If the gender were switched on this statement, how would it have sounded?

We all live in the "reality" we perceive. Often when the word "reality" is used, often the speaker is appealing to embrace their view of things.

I acknowledged the patriarchal problem.. the approach I suggest is see a person's humanity first, before cramming them in a gender box.

Oh, whatever. That was so obviously just a smart-ass remark. Get over it.

I actually agree with "Ain't patriarchy a bitch?" I believe it is. Matriarchy would be as well.

I thought this could be an opportunity for discussion.. oh well.. :)

"I believe in the inherent goodness of all beings" - DruBlood

I share that sentiment.. thought we could share our takes on things, even if we disagree.

No need to publish this post.. as far as I'm concerned.. :)

Then come to the table with some discussion items, not "everything that you've experienced in life is invalid because I have an ideal that men and women are the same thing and gender doesn't matter."

That's all groovy and everything, and believe it or not, I DO believe in the inherent goodness of all beings. But that doesn't mean I deny the reality that we all do fucked up shit sometimes, and our system is set up in a way that perpetuates that bullshit.

I do not want to get into a metaphysical discussion on reality.. language itself is conceptual. Although two people can witness the same event, it might be interpreted differently.

I mentioned gender roles.. and their function on the patriarchy.. also one can explore why feminist thought is slowly being abandoned.. I was amazed when I spoke some in same-sex couples that they fell into gender roles.. which leads me to believe that these are largely social constructs, rather than biological tendencies.

This puts into question ideas such as masculinity and femininity.. which also lends credence into the gender concept.

I believe many are fatigued by "The Battle of the Sexes", I happen to be one of them.

Right. And in the meantime, I am living in the patriarchy as a woman. What do you propose we do about gender inequity in the here and now?

In other words, I'm hearing you saying "gender doesn't matter." and I want to believe you...but in my day-to-day reality, gender DOES matter. And your attempted denial of that reality gets in the way of working together to solve it.

Gender matters to many. I've acknowedged this by recognizing the patriarchy. It doesn't matter to me. Does it matter to you? I'm not talking about biology here (sex).

I believe human solidarity, rather than gender or race (another questionable concept), does more to create bridges rather than fragmenting that basic respect.

Mistrust begets mistrust. Sometimes leaving a space for the hope of fruitful interaction is necessary to build these bridges. And I believe that begins by acknowedging our common humanity first, before taking into account any other often superficial differences.

You don't even know how much I am hearing you. However, we all live in this society in which gender very much DOES matter, and in order to get to that place where we can exist in a genderless society, we first need to be honest about and acknowledge the ways in which gender affects our worldview.

I don't believe you when you say that gender doesn't matter to you. I don't believe that anyone can escape that. To me, it sounds like denial. It's more honest to say that you are open to questioning and challenging HOW gender matters to you...but I don't believe it is possible to not be affected by gender at all. You are immersed in it! It's all around you! How can it not affect you? And why YOU?

Let's start there. I'd like to hear your answer.

I don't believe in the concept of race. Yet believe racism is a problem. This is not a contradiction.

A person who doesn't believe in God can acknowedge the difficulty with religion. This does not mean s/he must embrace the belief.

I don't understand your insistance I'm in denial. Denial of what in particular. I just acknowledged the patriarchy. I don't need to embrace gender to see how some people unfortunately do.

I asked a specific question, and did not get an answer. I'll ask it again:

"I don't believe it is possible to not be affected by gender at all. You are immersed in it! It's all around you! How can it not affect you? And why YOU?"

"Gender roles enslave us all."

I am part of all. If not, I'd be indifferent to this issue. Some will choose to look down upon others when they don't comply with social "norms".

Even though we disagree.. I frankly can't see the point of continuing this discussion, unless you believe I'm sincere. I believe you are sincere in your view, despite me not seeing it the way you do.

Peace.

That's fine, but I'm sitting here sort of wondering what your point was in the first place. I don't know if you didn't have one, or if it got lost in all of that circular talking...or what.